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Offline Cheerknowledge

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Two Competitions in and.....
« on: September 15, 2014, 10:53:25 PM »
I just wanted to see what some other's opinions were of what has been put on the mat.  Maybe some trends that people are noticing.  Teams that look really ready and poised for the season.  Teams that are surprising (good or bad).  Just general observations.

I have yet to see a competition personally but hope to see one soon.  From what I hear, it appears that many more teams are looking rough and "not ready" for this portion of the season.  I know this sounds like a jab and people's return will be, "It's so early, they are just feeling it out."  I get that I do.  However, I have watched this sport for some time now and I just feel it sticks out more this year than most years.  My own personal observation.  Maybe there is a team or two out there, but it's so quiet around here you can hear a pin drop, you wouldn't know who those teams are.  What gives?  I didn't feel there was a major change in the rubric outside of going to 4 stunt groups but it appears many are just bunking that rule and going with 3 anyways.  But with the way execution is going so far, it doesn't look like 3 is going to help that much over the 4.  If anything, just make it worse.  Are we losing more and more kids to the All-Star market?  I'm just throwing out some conversations pieces. 


I know the teams will get better, they will.  They always do.  But will the climb be harder this year than most years?  We shall see.  Once you get into that routine, it sure does take a lot to change something.  Every added element is one more stressor that wasn't their before.  That can be a good thing or a bad thing.


Let's hear your thoughts!
-This post is purely the opinion of Cheerknowledge and that of no one else and is not by any means influenced by any one person, team, or location.

Offline Cheerknowledge

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2014, 11:47:02 PM »

**Edit** it appears the post was moved or deleted.  However, the insight was good on what was taking place in the south.  Wish it could be re-posted.

Wonderful insight.  I definitely agree with you many teams are pushing the envelope on the rubric because they have to but it clearly shows it doesn't match where they currently.  You just have to caution this because it can definitely lead to some dangerous aspects.  Either way it just has been merely an observation of mine and through the grapevine, teams just aren't "ready."


I like your choices of the southern teams. I think south has been on an upswing and so has Effingham.  It is going to be fun seeing and hearing about those two going head to head.
-This post is purely the opinion of Cheerknowledge and that of no one else and is not by any means influenced by any one person, team, or location.

Offline cheerga94

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 01:49:04 AM »
I just wanted to see what some other's opinions were of what has been put on the mat.  Maybe some trends that people are noticing.  Teams that look really ready and poised for the season.  Teams that are surprising (good or bad).  Just general observations.

I have yet to see a competition personally but hope to see one soon.  From what I hear, it appears that many more teams are looking rough and "not ready" for this portion of the season.  I know this sounds like a jab and people's return will be, "It's so early, they are just feeling it out."  I get that I do.  However, I have watched this sport for some time now and I just feel it sticks out more this year than most years.  My own personal observation.  Maybe there is a team or two out there, but it's so quiet around here you can hear a pin drop, you wouldn't know who those teams are.  What gives?  I didn't feel there was a major change in the rubric outside of going to 4 stunt groups but it appears many are just bunking that rule and going with 3 anyways.  But with the way execution is going so far, it doesn't look like 3 is going to help that much over the 4.  If anything, just make it worse.  Are we losing more and more kids to the All-Star market?  I'm just throwing out some conversations pieces. 


I know the teams will get better, they will.  They always do.  But will the climb be harder this year than most years?  We shall see.  Once you get into that routine, it sure does take a lot to change something.  Every added element is one more stressor that wasn't their before.  That can be a good thing or a bad thing.


Let's hear your thoughts!

Eh I wouldn't say teams looked rough, although there were some who did and i wouldn't have ever expected them too. But, it's the nature of the sport. One day you could be on point, the next you could have every stunt on the ground. HOWEVER i feel like the schools who didn't do so hot stepped out of the comfort zone of just doing the full up and switch up. I am actually really surprised that very few teams have gone with doing low to highs.

From what i have seen this past weekend, at state, it is going to come down to who the judges liked the most. Not much skill difference between the teams.


Yes to the losing athletes to all-stars. As someone who is apart of the all-star industry i notice a lot of athletes not returning the to their high school programs after freshman/sophomore year in the northern area. This is not a problem in the south what so ever. As a matter of fact, i only notice southern teams getting better and better each year. It's a shame but as a former high school/all-star athlete, all-stars just have more to offer.

Offline GeorgiaCheerFan1029

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 09:13:01 AM »

**Edit** it appears the post was moved or deleted.  However, the insight was good on what was taking place in the south.  Wish it could be re-posted.

Wonderful insight.  I definitely agree with you many teams are pushing the envelope on the rubric because they have to but it clearly shows it doesn't match where they currently.  You just have to caution this because it can definitely lead to some dangerous aspects.  Either way it just has been merely an observation of mine and through the grapevine, teams just aren't "ready."


I like your choices of the southern teams. I think south has been on an upswing and so has Effingham.  It is going to be fun seeing and hearing about those two going head to head.

Okay, let's try this again.

I have been to two competitions here in the south and so far I am noticing several teams marking stunts or tumbling. Could this be a result of teams attempting to max out the rubric too early and could possibly be causing injuries? I'm sure there are other reasons, but just a thought. In those two competitions I have only seen two teams execute their routine well, and one of the teams was not even close to maxing out the rubric, but it was a very clean routine. Fact is, people are going to remember the teams that hit. I'm seeing these routines where stunts are barely staying in the air, some where only one stunt group completes the sequence. Teams are "pushing the envelope" as you said trying to either max out too early, or their team just can't do those advanced skills yet. Difficulty is important, yes, but what good does difficulty do if you can't hit it solid and clean? Execution is worth more on the score sheet. If you can hit those skills, go right ahead and be great at it!

From the two competitions I've been to, here are my favorites: Pierce County, wow! Even though they marked one stunt group and had a few minor bobbles, there is no doubt this talented group of ladies will go far. Tons of talent and great choreography! Effingham County, has struggled a little, but again some great and talented athletes. I believe they will work out the kinks and is a strong contender for the 5A title. Southeast Bulloch, I really enjoyed their routine, and it appears they've gotten some more tumbling skills on their team. I see them in the top 6 at State.

I've always been fan of Richmond Hill and South Effingham but have not seen them yet this year. They were on the program to compete but did not show. With these two in the same region as Effingham County, this will be very competitive. A very talented group in that region. It will be interesting to see how South Effingham will do moving up to 5A.

Wish I could see more of the Atlanta area schools though! Who are some teams to watch up North?

Offline Cheerknowledge

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2014, 10:53:24 PM »
Cheerga-

I do agree with you on the trend of how it can be up and done. I just felt there was a greater amount of teams that appeared to be, "off." Even some that don't usually have that issue. Maybe it's just one bad day but just a very outside observation.

Low to Highs for me are - whatever - if I must say. Again, this is just my opinion because so many teams can "fake" a low to high just like they can a "full up" so to me it's not really stretching yourself to make a low to high switch and have the backspot grab the ankle even before the switch. Your not rewarded in this state for stretching yourself, for example- a low high full around or hands full around. Why would you do those skills? Your not rewarded. Low highs while good are just like, ok because of the whole ability to grab that other ankle prior to switching. Middle school teams do this.

Moving forward, I think all stars does pull in the north because of the saturation of very successful all star gyms. Girls will choose to compete at an all star gym due to the name of the gym over the opportunity to cheer in HS. It just is what it is. I wish there was a way to balance the two.
-This post is purely the opinion of Cheerknowledge and that of no one else and is not by any means influenced by any one person, team, or location.

Offline cheerga94

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 11:47:46 AM »
Cheerga-

I do agree with you on the trend of how it can be up and done. I just felt there was a greater amount of teams that appeared to be, "off." Even some that don't usually have that issue. Maybe it's just one bad day but just a very outside observation.

Low to Highs for me are - whatever - if I must say. Again, this is just my opinion because so many teams can "fake" a low to high just like they can a "full up" so to me it's not really stretching yourself to make a low to high switch and have the backspot grab the ankle even before the switch. Your not rewarded in this state for stretching yourself, for example- a low high full around or hands full around. Why would you do those skills? Your not rewarded. Low highs while good are just like, ok because of the whole ability to grab that other ankle prior to switching. Middle school teams do this.

Moving forward, I think all stars does pull in the north because of the saturation of very successful all star gyms. Girls will choose to compete at an all star gym due to the name of the gym over the opportunity to cheer in HS. It just is what it is. I wish there was a way to balance the two.

Meant to add that when i was writing, i hate that there is no "degree of difficulty" on the scoresheet. I hate that a switch up is counted the same as a low to high and a full up is the same as a full around.

Over on the all-star/high school side of things, in all-stars you get more than just a ribbon(if even that at a lot of comps) when you win. And have more opportunities to win bigger things rather than competing all season and hopes of being that one team that wins that state ring. However i would not trade representing my school and being on that varsity team every cheerleader dreams of making before they even knew what all-stars was.

Offline Cheerknowledge

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 12:28:47 PM »
You bring up a good point at the bottom.  I wouldn't trade that experience either.  You only get it once.


We do have a DOD (degree of difficulty) in our sport, the problem howeve lies in the fact that it boxes you in to complete "required" skills.  True difficulty should be knowledge of what is the skill, how hard is the skill, how much of the skill is performed (how many groups or people), and I even think, when the skill takes place in the routine.  That is TRUE difficulty.
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Offline OnThisDayIseeClearly

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 04:47:13 PM »
I just wanted to see what some other's opinions were of what has been put on the mat.  Maybe some trends that people are noticing.  Teams that look really ready and poised for the season.  Teams that are surprising (good or bad).  Just general observations.

I have yet to see a competition personally but hope to see one soon.  From what I hear, it appears that many more teams are looking rough and "not ready" for this portion of the season.  I know this sounds like a jab and people's return will be, "It's so early, they are just feeling it out."  I get that I do.  However, I have watched this sport for some time now and I just feel it sticks out more this year than most years.  My own personal observation.  Maybe there is a team or two out there, but it's so quiet around here you can hear a pin drop, you wouldn't know who those teams are.  What gives?  I didn't feel there was a major change in the rubric outside of going to 4 stunt groups but it appears many are just bunking that rule and going with 3 anyways.  But with the way execution is going so far, it doesn't look like 3 is going to help that much over the 4.  If anything, just make it worse.  Are we losing more and more kids to the All-Star market?  I'm just throwing out some conversations pieces. 


I know the teams will get better, they will.  They always do.  But will the climb be harder this year than most years?  We shall see.  Once you get into that routine, it sure does take a lot to change something.  Every added element is one more stressor that wasn't their before.  That can be a good thing or a bad thing.


Let's hear your thoughts!

What I'm about to post is controversial and will probably offend someone.  But like Vultan in Flash Gordon said, "Ah, well.  Who wants to live forever?"  Yes, the GHSA is being affected by all stars.  Because the season and sport itself has been changed because of it.

When a squad can win state based upon DOD of tumbling versus a squad who had a near-flawless routine last year (yes, it happened), there's a problem.  Tweaks made to the rubric now in my opinion are a result of squads who would max out their tumbling scores and still got good scores for three stunt groups with backspotters.  It used to not be that way. 

I've not been to a competition yet.  But can't say I'm surprised at any squad looking rough early.  Because it's September in Georgia, it's hot and it's difficult to practice.  And in the case of smaller schools, some of them are having to get ready for football season.  I've said before and will say again that the quality of routines in September/first part of October aren't good at least in some cases because the squads are overworked.

Because the coaches and squads are having to deal with football.  Even if a school has separate squads, the reality is that at smaller schools, they wouldn't have a football game squad if there weren't for competition squad members.   I would argue that if the sport were moved back, even a month, things would be better.

All stars don't start until January I think.  Basketball's barely getting started and given how basketball squads aren't allowed to do much of anything at games anyway, that doesn't require as much work.  Stop trying to cram competition season into the fall.  Undo the logjam that has softball, cross country, one act play, and cheerleading, all rammed together.

Offline cheer4all

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 06:10:08 PM »
I totally agree with what you said about tumbling ruling the routine. Seems like it used to be that you could have only one full but a clean, tight set of stunt sequences and win a competition. Now a days if you're not maxing out tumbling with those 3/4 fulls, you don't stand a chance no matter how clean/difficult the rest is. I also thinks it's crazy that GHSA added a creativity segment to the rubric a few years ago but almost eliminated the ability to be creative when everyone is aiming for the switch up and full ups! The dance/cheer which is truthfully one of the few areas you can be creative tends to be the smallest/shortest part of the routine. Besides that, whose to say what is creative? Again- just my opinion!

Offline cheerga94

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Re: Two Competitions in and.....
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 11:26:04 PM »
You bring up a good point at the bottom.  I wouldn't trade that experience either.  You only get it once.


We do have a DOD (degree of difficulty) in our sport, the problem howeve lies in the fact that it boxes you in to complete "required" skills.  True difficulty should be knowledge of what is the skill, how hard is the skill, how much of the skill is performed (how many groups or people), and I even think, when the skill takes place in the routine.  That is TRUE difficulty.

what i meant with the DOD is that you are not rewarded for the harder variations of the full up, switch up, etc. and that the DOD is basically if you do these you will max out. What i love about all stars is that there is a low, medium, and high range, and doing a certain number of skills will get you in the high range, but the high range can be from 8.0-8.9 so depending on what you do, you could either score on the low end of the high range, or the high end of the high range. i wish we had something like that.

Offline OnThisDayIseeClearly

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Speaking of sameness...
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2014, 12:53:12 AM »
I totally agree with what you said about tumbling ruling the routine. Seems like it used to be that you could have only one full but a clean, tight set of stunt sequences and win a competition. Now a days if you're not maxing out tumbling with those 3/4 fulls, you don't stand a chance no matter how clean/difficult the rest is. I also thinks it's crazy that GHSA added a creativity segment to the rubric a few years ago but almost eliminated the ability to be creative when everyone is aiming for the switch up and full ups! The dance/cheer which is truthfully one of the few areas you can be creative tends to be the smallest/shortest part of the routine. Besides that, whose to say what is creative? Again- just my opinion!

Pyramids are very blaze' and same looking.  Everyone does full ups and switch ups, everyone does a tick tock.  Why?  Because it's the only way to get the most points.  How can there be creativity in any part of the routine if squads have to do things a certain way to get the best score?

 

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