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Author Topic: Region hosting locations  (Read 28001 times)

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Offline OnThisDayIseeClearly

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Region hosting locations
« on: November 16, 2013, 05:35:40 PM »
What are your thoughts?  Should they be at a college or other neutral location or is it acceptable for a school that has a squad competing to host.  I understand the argument of letting the hometown fans watch their squad.  But consider the following.

A certain school hosted region last weekend.  They won region and had a higher score (240 points) than the team that finished third at state in AA today.  The host team was last in AA today.  No, I can't prove anything.  But it doesn't look right. 

It's hard to believe that in one week the same two squads could be scored that differently and have that different a result.  If it had nothing to do with the location, at best the judges didn't do their job.  But I think there's less chance of controversy with it being a neutral site.

CheerCoach2012

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2013, 08:34:23 PM »
My guess is that the judges are just so inconsistent. The judges are mixed of all the associations. Location shouldn't matter. Its all about the judges. Looking at some of the scores the judges are still very biased and inconsistent within their own scoring let alone across all 5 judges.

There needs to be only 1 judge association that is trained and certified. These judges need to leave their alliances to teams at the door and give points where they are earned. Instead of conserving points. I'm tired of judges that start low and hold points because they know a certain team is coming up later in the day.  Example: a team got a 99 from one judge and 94 and 95 from the other 4. They got 6th. That same judge scored the 3rd place team a 90.


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CheerCoach2012

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2013, 09:49:57 PM »
Yeah I talked with a coach in AA And in running tumbling at sectionals they scored a 5in Dod but at state with the same passes and no touches had a 2. It's sad that teams lose or don't score what they put out because of inconsistent judging. It's the the reason why a lot of people still say it's not a sport because like our congress a lot of people are dictated by a few.

Pam carter needs to do something about this. The biases toward teams has to be squelched. The rubric also needs to be changed for 3 vs 4 stunts. You shouldn't be able to score as high with less difficulty of a routine. Or they have to add more elements to those 3 groups. But should be like the front spot rule -1 point DOD for not putting 4 groups up.
 


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Offline cheerub

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2013, 10:23:31 PM »
One weekend a panel saw a pyramid and maxed it out but the next weekend didn't max it. I agree about the 4 vs 5 groups. Also, when a team of 16 does 5 legitimate 2 mans and doesn't use a full stunt group as the 5th group, that should count for something, as well. The 7-8 in DOD for pyramid needs to go- if specific skills are specified, then why is there any leeway for a 7 OR 8?? Just some thoughts...

Offline OnThisDayIseeClearly

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You're absolutely right...
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2013, 11:43:42 PM »
What's really mind boggling about judges is Calhoun scored a 217 in sectionals to a 276 for finals.

No disrespect to Calhoun at all-it's not their problem it's the judges.

THAT IS A CRAZY CHANGE IN NUMBERS. Almost 60 points

I don't blame any squad who wins.  Not even the one last weekend.  It's the judges not doing their job.  When they mess up, especially in big situations, it affects others.  Squads who should've gotten a better place go to sectionals or in some cases don't make it.  And sometimes, squads go who really in terms of skill aren't good enough.

Offline OnThisDayIseeClearly

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The problem is...
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2013, 11:51:28 PM »
Yeah I talked with a coach in AA And in running tumbling at sectionals they scored a 5in Dod but at state with the same passes and no touches had a 2. It's sad that teams lose or don't score what they put out because of inconsistent judging. It's the the reason why a lot of people still say it's not a sport because like our congress a lot of people are dictated by a few.

Pam carter needs to do something about this. The biases toward teams has to be squelched. The rubric also needs to be changed for 3 vs 4 stunts. You shouldn't be able to score as high with less difficulty of a routine. Or they have to add more elements to those 3 groups. But should be like the front spot rule -1 point DOD for not putting 4 groups up.
 
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Some squads get benefit of the doubt because of reputation.  Like Pepprell being called to the mat last year despite dropping stunts.  As to the rubric, I think it's twisted the sport.  I have no problem with tumbling being a big part of the score.  But a squad shouldn't be able to max out tumbling scores, max out partner stunt scores despite a low DoD and win state.  They shouldn't be able to win with 12 or 15 girls just because it's easier to have squad standing tucks when your squad is smaller.


calhouncheerfan

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2013, 08:17:01 AM »
What's really mind boggling about judges is Calhoun scored a 217 in sectionals to a 276 for finals.

No disrespect to Calhoun at all-it's not their problem it's the judges.

THAT IS A CRAZY CHANGE IN NUMBERS. Almost 60 points

I am a past cheer parent-coach and friend to Calhoun coaches.....I saw sectional scores.  Calhoun won sectionals with a score of a 270 -5 for tumbling = 265.  The next team was Bowden with a 235.  Not sure where you received your information.....this was their personal best until finals. 

Offline UPro Media

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2013, 10:34:31 AM »
I have to argue in the opposite direction to say that I wish the state championships would be broken down to several smaller events around the state in order that the money would remain closer to the schools that put so much into the sport.  I feel that GHSA positions itself to take advantage of the ability to dictate the locations thus the money of any sport's state championship.  I see this in all sports that are able to generate serious revenue, and my understanding is that cheerleading is 2nd in money generated for GHSA only to football due to the State Championship being held as it is.  This money could be used more effectively at a local level by the schools than by a corporate organization like GHSA.  The football competition format is constantly changing due to this issue and the considerable power which their coaches and school administrators have demonstrated to keep the revenue for more games at the school level.  I would love to see a group of schools hosting a division of the state championship at a local arena and sharing the revenue, or maybe even spreading it to all schools that attend!  This is real money. 

Offline Cheerknowledge

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2013, 11:01:09 AM »

What's really mind boggling about judges is Calhoun scored a 217 in sectionals to a 276 for finals.

No disrespect to Calhoun at all-it's not their problem it's the judges.

THAT IS A CRAZY CHANGE IN NUMBERS. Almost 60 points

I am a past cheer parent-coach and friend to Calhoun coaches.....I saw sectional scores.  Calhoun won sectionals with a score of a 270 -5 for tumbling = 265.  The next team was Bowden with a 235.  Not sure where you received your information.....this was their personal best until finals.

I deleted my post out of respect and misinformation. Thank you for clarifying. Again...respect for Calhoun and not a coach or athlete problem!
-This post is purely the opinion of Cheerknowledge and that of no one else and is not by any means influenced by any one person, team, or location.

Offline Cheerknowledge

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2013, 11:02:27 AM »
I read that the Columbus area generates over 1.2 million for the state championships being held there. That's a big intake!
-This post is purely the opinion of Cheerknowledge and that of no one else and is not by any means influenced by any one person, team, or location.

vicki

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2013, 11:10:26 AM »
Yeah I talked with a coach in AA And in running tumbling at sectionals they scored a 5in Dod but at state with the same passes and no touches had a 2. It's sad that teams lose or don't score what they put out because of inconsistent judging. It's the the reason why a lot of people still say it's not a sport because like our congress a lot of people are dictated by a few.

Pam carter needs to do something about this. The biases toward teams has to be squelched. The rubric also needs to be changed for 3 vs 4 stunts. You shouldn't be able to score as high with less difficulty of a routine. Or they have to add more elements to those 3 groups. But should be like the front spot rule -1 point DOD for not putting 4 groups up.
 
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Some squads get benefit of the doubt because of reputation.  Like Pepprell being called to the mat last year despite dropping stunts.  As to the rubric, I think it's twisted the sport.  I have no problem with tumbling being a big part of the score.  But a squad shouldn't be able to max out tumbling scores, max out partner stunt scores despite a low DoD and win state.  They shouldn't be able to win with 12 or 15 girls just because it's easier to have squad standing tucks when your squad is smaller.


Yes but that would not be fair in towns where you might only have 10-14 girls try out for competition cheer and do not have 16 on the floor. I thought the Oconee team looked wonderful yesterday and they only have 10 girls. Some don't have the luxury of having their pick from alot of girls trying out. It still needs to be based on overall technique and skill, sharpness, etc., no matter how many girls compete. I did not think it was fair yesterday that so many larger teams had several hands down during tumbling and stunts fall but still managed to be in the top 3, but I'm not down there judging so that is just the way that it is!

Offline Cheerknowledge

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2013, 11:25:00 AM »
Oconee county is a large enough school. I think their coach is great. But you can't honestly believe they don't have enough to try out for competitive cheerleading do you? Do you really think only 12-14 girls showed up for cheerleading tryouts for one of the best coaches in the state. I don't believe so.
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Offline cheerga94

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2013, 12:16:57 PM »
Oconee county is a large enough school. I think their coach is great. But you can't honestly believe they don't have enough to try out for competitive cheerleading do you? Do you really think only 12-14 girls showed up for cheerleading tryouts for one of the best coaches in the state. I don't believe so.

They had quite a few alternates also.

Offline Cheerknowledge

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 01:18:42 PM »

Oconee county is a large enough school. I think their coach is great. But you can't honestly believe they don't have enough to try out for competitive cheerleading do you? Do you really think only 12-14 girls showed up for cheerleading tryouts for one of the best coaches in the state. I don't believe so.

They had quite a few alternates also.

Exactly. It's not the coaches fault for having the ability to choose to put less on the floor. It's the power at be that allow for it to happen but it has caused a problem and the upper powers will not admit their mistake and change the rule as of now. I think it makes our sport look ridiculous with half of the divisions having 16 and the other half having 15 or less.

You can't tell me it's an issue when the intent of the rule was to help smaller schools. 4 schools that placed in the top 4 for Single A had 16 memebers on the floor. The argument of not having enough tryout is not valid.
-This post is purely the opinion of Cheerknowledge and that of no one else and is not by any means influenced by any one person, team, or location.

Offline cheerub

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Re: Region hosting locations
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2013, 03:42:01 PM »
The problem is the RUBRIC. Remember- even with 16 on the floor, you still have the -2 for standing tumbling which means that only 14 girls have to tumble (with your requirements for fulls) in order to max out DOD. Wen the rubric changed, the statement was made (and I believe that it is still on the scoring and rubric guidelines somewhere, as well) that a team with fewer than 16 members would not be able to perform as intricate of a pyramid as a team with 16. However, that was before separate structures for pyramids were being counted as pyramids. For example, the pyramid requirements state 
 
 
 
 "Highly advanced pyramid that includes 2 or more structures with 2 or more advanced entries to the extended position (using 2 or more synchronized flyers), plus 2 or more advanced transitions/release transitions. Highly creative and very visual.
Structure: A place in a pyramid when flyers connect (hand?hand or hand?foot) and pause to show a defined position. This is also known as a picture."
Remember that teams can execute ALL of the specified skills required to max out pyramid (an 8 for DOD) yet still receive a 7 if judges feel that the pyramid could be more creative. This is the only place other than in dance where the DOD score is a range of 7-8 to max. All other areas are a  set DOD score based on the required components. Creativity is SUBJECTIVE and should be scored in EXECUTION ONLY, not DOD.
My point is that the rubric can be "interpreted" in so many different ways, which gives coaches and teams the ability to compete with however many they want and still be able to get full credit for the components. Should teams with 16 be held to a higher standard of difficulty than teams with 15 or fewer? Should teams with 16 automatically be able to score higher than teams with 15 or fewer?  Should the pyramid be changed to require a 5 wide (two 4 person extended groups, a 4 person prep group in the middle, two shoulder sits on the outside, for example) structure in order to max out? That structure would require 16 members, but then the whole "highly creative and highly visual" part would have to change because everyone would have to do essentially the same thing to meet the requirement. I'm STILL going to harp on the fact that the secondary stunt requirement of 5 stunt groups should be 5 two mans and a flyer (not four with a regular full stunt group as the 5th) to max there. I think that there was only one, maybe two, teams all weekend that did LEGIT 5 groups. To me, those teams should receive more points in stunts because they ARE executing more difficult skills in that area alone.
What I DID like seeing this weekend were the new teams, some who were considered "underdogs" coming in and placing in the top 4, beating out teams that are there every year. This makes me feel like some of the "politics" people have always felt were associated with ghsa cheer may not be so powerful anymore. It also showed that you can't win on name and reputation alone. I am not saying anything negative about the teams that we see placing or winning year after year,  but I think that some of the new teams being there could help reassure athletes that they CAN, in fact, set goals and achieve them through hard work.

   

 

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